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#TheBand; #George Harrison; #LevonHelm; #RobbieRobertson; #GarthHudson; #RichardManuel; #RickDanko; #R.E.M.; #PeterBuck; #MichaelStipe; #MikeMills; #AlbertGrossman; #BillJanovitz; #GregKot; #StephenDa, Don'tForgetTheSongs365
Don’t Forget the Songs-365: Mach Tres: Day 258
Mon. Nov 18, 2013
“Jemima Surrender”
The Band
1969
“♫ I’ll
bring over
my Fender/
& play all
night with
you ♫”
“Jemima Surrender” has this all for one sound that was a reflection of the vivacious unity between the members of The Band, Levon Helm, Robbie Robertson, Garth Hudson, Richard Manuel and Rick Danko. But that collective harmony was short lived due to the battle for songwriting credit that lingers on, clouding the band’s history with greed, remains apart of the imperfect legacy of North America’s greatest five-piece band. I have no doubt that Robbie Robertson deserves credit for leading The Band to commercial success. But one has to wonder what happened to The Band’s creative output after 1969? Did fame truly stifle the creativity of one of North America’s greatest five peace of all time? Did Helm, Hudson, Manuel and Danko secede all songwriting authority to Robertson? Or did Robbie see an opportunity to give himself a bigger percentage of the song royalties over his band-mates? Will we ever truly unearth what happened to The Band?
The Band’s 1969 were the long awaited follow-up to 1968’s critically acclaimed debut album Music from Big Pink. By 1969, Robertson, Helm, Hudson, Manuel and Danko still had that all for one, band of brother’s work ethic that spawned such Big Pink classics like “The Weight” and “Tears of Rage.” The Band’s self title second album had a bluesier, southern charmed Americana feel. “Jemima” thrives on that spirit as this lusty southern roots rocker that was helmed by Levon, who continued his soulful croons that were brilliantly captured on Big Pink’s “The Weight.” Helm described the recording of “Surrender” in his book The Wheel’s on Fire, co-authored with Stephen Davis, when The Band’s drummer wrote, “We also cut “Jemima Surrender” there, which I wrote with Robertson. That was another of those songs about wanting the love of a lady of color; Aunt Jemima was an s close as we could get for a name. We switched instruments: Richard was on drums, I played guitar, and I think Rick played a six-string bass.”
But where was Robbie when Richard, Rick and Levon cut the backing track to “Surrender?” In Barney Hoskyns’ Across The Divide: The Band and America, Robertson explained why his output was limited on the 1969 self-titled album, when Robbie said, “The biggest reason why I chose not to sing was that it would have unbalanced the whole thing. I didn’t want to be the writer and the guitar player and the singer, because it wouldn’t have been a band anymore. But it was also that I loved being the director, I enjoy saying, “You know, why don’t you try singing this in here? When we get to this section, you go up. Then we’ll sing the melody, and the characters will change.”
This early version of “Jemima” begs the question how much did Robertson actually bring to Levon’s song. I have to admit that Robertson’s George Harrison-esque guitar solo, is a highlight of the final song from 1969’s self titled The Band but did he just add those colorfully bluesy Dark Horse textured licks along with the harmony vocals and horns that fleshed out the sound brought together by producer John Simon?
In Hoskyns book, Across the Great Divide, Robertson admits doing to his bandmates like Hudson for guidance during the songwriting process when Robbie explained, “If there was something about the feeling in a song, an angle I couldn’t get, Levon would always find ways to get the feel I hadn’t been able to express. And Rick would come up with some great harmony ideas. […] If I was trying to do a song that was on the verge of being a little more sophisticated than what we normally did, Garth would help me with the chord structures. I’d say, “I’m playing this, Garth, but there’s something missing, something wrong.”
Something was definitely wrong when Levon saw the final credits to 1969’s The Band LP. Helm was literally shocked when The Band’s self titled second album was released when he wrote in his book The Wheel’s on Fire, “So when the album came out, I discovered that I was credited for writing half of ‘Jemima Surrender’ and that was it. Richard was a co-writer on three songs. Rick and Garth went uncredited. Robbie Robertson was credited on all twelve songs. Somebody had pencil whipped us. It was an old tactic: divide and conquer.”
Unfortunately this dark episode in the life of The Band was not an original story, as Rick Danko said in Helm’s book that after the money from the song royalties started rolling in, the band changed and wasn’t ready to deal with commercial success as he explained, “Those first royalty checks we got almost killed some of us. “This Wheel’s on Fire” was never really a hit, but it had been recorded by a few people, and all of a sudden I got a couple hundred thousand dollars out of left field! Dealing with this wasn’t in the fuckin’ manual, man. I’m here to tell you that it’s a crying shame to see what success can do to some people. I’m sure it wasn’t the best thing that could have happened to the band.”
Danko wasn’t the only one to realize that these royalties were the first sign of trouble for The Band. Helm saw the lack of songwriting credits stalled the band’s creative progress as he noted in his book The Wheel’s on Fire, when he wrote, “After that [The Band’s 1969’s album], the level of the group’s collaboration declined, and our creative process was severely disrupted. There was confusion. It’s important to recognize Robertson’s role as a catalyst and writer, but I blame Albert Grossman for letting him or giving him or making him take too much credit for the band’s work.”
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Albert Grossman was Bob Dylan’s manager who then was chosen to manage The Band. According to Levon, it seemed like Grossman’s loyalties were linked more with Robertson than the rest of The Band as he explained in his book, “I complained that he [Robbie Robertson] and Albert had been making important business decisions without consulting the rest of us and far too much cash was coming down in his and Albert’s corner. Our publishing split was far from fair, I told [Robbie], and had to be fixed. I told [Robertson] that he and Albert ought to try to write some music without us, because they couldn’t possibly find the songs unless we all were searching together. I cautioned that most so-called business moves had fucked up a lot of great bands and killed off whatever music was left in them.”
Robertson didn’t listen or never did back down from his stance as being the principled chief songwriter of The Band as Robbie told Chicago Tribune writer Greg Kot in 2002, “To say that it was an issue [while they were together in The Band] is just nonsense, utter nonsense, after all these years. Who did the work? I tried, I begged Levon to write songs or help me write songs — all the guys. I always encouraged everybody to write. You can’t make somebody do what they don’t want to do or can’t do, and he’s not a songwriter. With The Band he started to write one song, `Strawberry Wine,’ the whole time and couldn’t finish it, and I helped him finish it. And there were some other songs that I wrote and he was there when I was writing them, and just because he was being supportive, I gave him credit on a couple of songs. He didn’t write one note, one word, nothing. What he’s saying now is the result of somebody thinking about their financial problems. I wrote these songs and then 20 or 30 years later somebody comes back and says he wrote the songs?” Just by reading these quotes from Robertson and Helm, you can feel the literal ‘Great Divide’ growing larger between these legends after 1969, it’s amazing that they lasted until seven more years until The Band’s last show in 1976 as a collective five piece documented in Martin Scorsese’s 1978 film The Last Waltz.
Like I said before, this story is old. I actually asked Bill Janovitz, author of Rocks Off: 50 Tracks That Tell The Story of The Rolling Stones, when I interviewed him about the controversy over songwriting credits in The Stones and he said, “Who really knows how much input others have. Often musicians who cannot write consistently great stuff confuse arranging and helping to flesh out songs with “songwriting.” If, for example, Mick Taylor really was a writer of those great songs, why is it that he did not keep writing such great songs, or had not done so before, as far as I am aware anyway?” Janovitz has a point about The Stones and for The Band’s case, unfortunately, we weren’t there. The only people who know exactly who wrote what were Robertson, Helm, Manuel, Hudson and Danko.
But at least not all bands fall into this trap, R.E.M. was one that learned the lessons that The Band never did as author Mirit Eliraz discovered in his book, Band Together: Internal Dynamics in U2, R.E.M., Radiohead, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, when Peter Buck explained, “I remember reading an interview where the drummer of a famous 60’s band said, ‘The money’s in songwriting, and I am going to get three of my songs on the next album no matter how bad they are.”” Michael Stipe commented on how R.E.M. dealt with that common greed within bands, in Music and Musicians magazine when R.E.M.’s singer said, “Peter made the suggestion at the very beginning of R.E.M. that we should credit all the songs to everybody, because what breaks bands up as much as anything else is a principal songwriter getting all the money. We also knew that it would be all of us contributing.” I believe Eliraz said it best when he wrote in his book Band Together, “[Buck’s insistence] of distributing the songwriting credits and money four ways in what Miss calls one of the best decisions the band ever made.”
When I hear this joyful jewel from The Band’s 1969’s self titled second album, “Jemima Surrender” remains a rhythmic reminder of what could have been. For another rock band, divided and conquered by songwriting royalties where loyalties took a backseat to the love of the almighty dollar. Unfortunately, The Band became the lesson that all future bands and artists should heed. It’s a shame that one of the most celebrated five piece band in North American rock history would fall into this all familiar trap now a cliché but back in the late sixties and seventies artists like The Band’s original goal was to play songs for the love or music. But what happens when the music ends? Who takes care of the musicians, and the artist when the music is over?
So go back and relive the magic of The Band, circa 1969. When all that ever matters is what’s reflected on wax and the sound of “Jemima” is one which demands that you “Surrender” yourself to the glory of this classic cut before the story of The Band is soured with greed and contention over songwriting royalties. “Jemima Surrender” is how we should truly remember The Band, bluesy, southern charmed Americana—joyful and triumphant.
Don't Forget The Songs 365 
What happened to the Band after 1969?
Excessive drug and alcohol abuse for one thing.
Beyond that, it’s utter BS that Robbie somehow wrangled away or stole the songwriting credits.
No, like the author, I wasn’t around when these songs were born.
But the proof is largely in what came afterward.
How many songs did Levon Helm write in his post-Band career. Two? Three? His albums were all covers, with very few exceptions. And whatever he did “write” was not memorable.
Ditto for Danko and Manuel. The latter, as we all know, had tremendous songwriting ability, but alcoholism killed that.
From 1970 on. Again, how many songs did Richard write between 1970 and his death in 1986? Perhaps one, a co-write with Clapton for Clapton’s 1976 solo album.
This entire premise of so-called songwriting ripping off and royalties appears to be primarily be the byproduct of Levon Helm’s financial problems, as Robbie stated.
How many really good songs did Robbie write without the others’ contribution? Listening to Robbie’s work reminds me in no way of The Band, when it was a cohesive unit producing great music. This article demonstrates that his failure to share song writing credits bred resentment and reluctance to cooperate. I hope he feels guilty about the money, but I doubt it.
So he wasn’t the lead singer because it would have upset the balance? What a laugh. He didn’t sing because The Band had three guys who could sing better than he could.
I do like Robbie’s voice to a certain degree. It works for his solo stuff.
But, I believe the rule back in the days of the Band was Robbie’s microphone was to be OFF at all times, and was little more than a prop. In those old films – and in The Last Waltz – he’s certainly “singing” with a lot of gusto.
How many good songs did Robbie write without the contribution of the others? How many songs whose sole authorship nobody — not even Levon — has ever disputed?
A few decent ones come to mind:
“The Weight”
“Acadian Driftwood”
“It Makes No Difference”
“Stage Fright”
“Up on Cripple Creek”
Not such a bad selection.
Exactly what K. Cramsey said. Six solo albums, two co-writes and one of those co-writes was the old trick of adapting and arranging an old blues song. Then there’s the song “Dirt Farmer” which was another adapted and arranged deal, except the song was written by Tracy Schwarz of the New Lost City Ramblers, and later pressings of the album were changed to show this.
Levon was a great drummer and singer, but not a songwriter.
Contributing to an arrangement of a song is not songwriting.
Thank You for your impassioned comments. If you read my “Evangeline” post for today, I wrote, “Despite all the conjecture about songwriting credits that haunted the legacy of The Band, “Evangeline” definitely prove, there’s no doubt, that Robertson was the author and keeper of The Band’s lyrical flame.”
Thanks again for reading! Love Live Robbie Robertson & The Band!
https://dontforgetthesongs365.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/how-emmylou-harris-and-the-band-transformed-evangeline-robbie-robertsons-last-waltz-gem-into-an-instant-southern-classic/
Sounds like a lot of hair-splitting to me. Everyone in a band contributes in their own way, and all have equal worth to the end-product. How many collaborative painters judge the worth of their share of a painting by how much paint they used? You can write the War & Peace of music, but without the player, it’s simply scribbles on paper, and you don’t need words to make good music in the first place. The Band had the right writing and the right players, and was torpedoed because of the Almighty Dollar. Another beautiful thing destroyed by capitalism. R.E.M. had the right idea – all for one, and one for all.
Take what you need and leave the rest , they should never have taken the very best………………..
I’ve no doubt that Robbie Robertson, in terms of melody and lyrics, wrote all those songs. I also have no doubt that without that vehicle – that sound, those voices – a lot of them wouldn’t have been nearly as successful or turned into the classics they eventually became. Robertson has admitted as much in various interviews. And that has always made me think that a 60/40 Robertson/Band split, would have been the right thing to do.
I don’t think there was ever a mountain of cash rolling in from those songs, due to the fact they were never huge hits, but it would have prevented Garth, Levon and Rick from experiencing financial disaster, which was/is a shame really. And from what I understand (maybe I’m mistaken), the guys sold their publishing to Robbie a while back, perhaps due to the need for a cash influx.
Yes that last bit it true Eric for $20,000 all except Levon who then had income from the movies he was in..TJ
According to a 1993 interview, Rick said that he and Levon made a comfortable living off their Band royalties. The problem is that, if you spend more than you make, you are going to run in to financial difficulties no matter how much your earn. It seems the boys wanted to keep the rock star lifestyle even after most of the money had dried up. Sad it all had to end that way. Most of us can only dream of having the kind of musical talent those guys had and they just threw it all away.
This makes the most sense to me of all the posts here. The main thing that seems wrong with the LEVON assertions is why did he wait from 1969 to 1991 when he This Wheels On Fire book came out to claim all this? Surely he could have seen that he got songwriting credits due him when they were at the height of their popularity 1969 to 1973! AND the fact that there are MANY co-writing credits on THE BAND albums anyway! If Robbie wanted to get all the credit why was he allowing this! makes no sense. Jemima Surrender lyrics sound like classic Robbie Robertson of the time to me. The article does make some good points about songwriting in other great bands however the DANKO stuff is something completely different talking about handling all the money! There are many more false credits by ADDITION in songwriting than exclusion. LENNON-McCartney being a prime example. A lot of their songs were only one of them as is well known, “Contributions” to songs, unless words , melody or basic chord structure are part of the arrangement not the writing.
Great band and Robbie Robertson’s solo stuff is fantastic. I still try to buy all their stuff I can.
I think your example of The Stones puts this all in perspective. Everyone of those damn songs says Mick and Keith as far as writing credit. Don’t tell me Charlie Watts didn’t contribute something to most of them. Somehow they worked it out and no one is stomping around whining. As has been stated before, the proof is in who continued to write great songs after The Band broke up. Robbie has probably received more royalties off of Broken Arrow than any of The Band songs. And no one here has stated definitively what the publishing split was on those songs, only that people didn’t get writing credit. I’m really tired of Robertson getting bashed – it diminishes the memory of the others.
I know way too much about all of this to go into it in full depth and detail. I knew them and got most of it from the “horses mouth”, there was a deal splitting Royalties that at a low point for the others Robbie bought out from the other members except for Levon for $20,000 each. The Author neglects to mention The Night They Drove Ole Dixie Down, which was their biggest earning song as far as I know and that song the entire 2nd half 2/3rds of it the Lyrics were written by Levon. I remember Sandy Helm telling me as Levon related that tale to me, “Robbie was sitting right there were you are now TJ and I was here in the kitchen at the counter right here and Levon wrote all those lyrics, and Robbie never gave him any credit for any of them..!”
I’ve also read the entire 70 page Last Waltz Contract and that was clearly a Scam The Band never had any legal representation the contract was with the label and film company and Last Waltz Productions which was Robbie and Martin Scorsese not The Band. They signed where it said “As far as it Concerns You”, WTF, is that, and who decides what concerns them. Levon called it The Last Rip-Off..!
The greatest thing about The Band was that they were an Ensemble anyone of them could have led his own band, and these songs were brought to life in an ensemble fashion. I’ve recorded with Garth Hudson and can tell you, whatever it is you wrote after Garth “hits it”, is another piece of music, you sit there saying I wrote this, it’s incredible.
There’s no denying the collusion between Albert and the attorneys Albert assigned to Robbie aid and the other Band members. To be fair all of them Richard, Rick, Garth and Levon were terrible with money and the responsibilities we all must endure, paying bills, they sucked at, the worst, but living for music making music creating an entirely new genre Americana they were geniuses..the gave us a gift that keeps on giving, they enriched our culture unlike what people call artists today who have ruined our society culture and so many lives..!
To give you some insight on Robbie, consider this, when it came to The Last Waltz, Robbie wanted to bump Muddy Waters and Levon reused to do it if Muddy was bumped, and why was John Hammond not included, I discussed this with John and Rick Danko always brought that up if I mentioned John. Ask yourself what did Neil Diamond have to do with the music of The Band?
On one spread sheet report I read from MGM The Last Waltz earned nearly $39 million dollars,from 78-98 Last Waltz productions got 40% of that, the rest was written down to the penny by the Studio! Richard’s family, Rick, Levon and Garth never saw a penny of it..
Also they had to go out as audiences expected it often and sing these songs which they knew they never got paid for creating breathing life into even at times writing whole sections and even lyrics too, this frustration really got to Richard especially and was as Levon always felt a contributing factor to his suicide..
Did Robbie write a lot yes and I love his writing even today and I can write songs and have written some real good ones, in part because he was a big influence on me as was John Simon and of course Bob Dylan. It’s a knack but there is a formula and once you’ve got it down they fall into place. Robbie learn the formula from Bob, the walk downs within the Gospel chords he uses as does Clapton so often, it’s hard to explain without getting technical but once you’ve got the idea the songs write themselves.
I know from them directly they were led to believe they were all writing these songs and all were gonna be compensated and share in the proceeds. The Last Waltz was supposedly gonna set them all up for life, that’s what they were led to believe and they were wasted on nose candy when they signed that contract provided by the “powers that be” when they did sign it, not knowing they were nothing but back up players for the “stars” listed on the Contract Main page..”As far as it concerns you..”, who ever heard of such a thing on a contract for a major production like The Last Waltz..the same attitude was indicative when it came to song writing and royalties, they were so easy to manipulate because they loved playing and loved making music..
As far as Neil Diamond’s participation goes, I believe that Robbie was either producing his current album or lobbying for the gig. As far as the songwriting issues…the whole was definitely greater than the sum of it’s parts. That being said, I think Jericho hangs with some of their best work but, at least for me, none of Robbie’s got near it.
Well said, TJ. On the one hand, you could say they (the less unfortunate four) brought it upon themselves with their poor decision-making and lack of business savvy, which most likely didn’t seem too important when they were on top of the world. But on the other, you have to wonder why their good friend (the fortunate one) didn’t take it upon himself to ensure that didn’t happen, by looking after his band mates and including them in the Band’s business entity, whether they cared enough to be concerned about that end of it or not. And Robbie strikes me as the kind of person who that sort of thing would be lost on.
Oh, and what’s Garth like? He seems like a most fascinating character!
Robbie said in a 1983 interview that he got sick of his band mates irresponsible behaviour (drugs, car crashes etc.). He said (if my memory serves me well) that he tried to encourage them to lead more productive lives but they wouldn’t listen so after a while he just stopped caring. He wanted to move on with his life and all they could do was be a bar band.
Nice story, TJ. Too bad you’re a liar. Sandy met Levon in 1975, six years after Robbie wrote “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down,” so she couldn’t have been “here in the kitchen at the counter” when the song was written. And since you made that up, nothing else you claim can be believed, either.
I can say with complete confidence that the songwriting issue had absolutely nothing to do with Richard’s passing.
Grossman, Robertson, Dylan all have one thing in common. Their ethnicity is what united them more than anything.
exactly!
The songs write themselves? That’s hilarious.
1. “Songwriting” in music industry terms means something very specific. According to those terms, the songwriting credits on the band’s albums probably were allocated “correctly”. The fact that on the early albums there were more credits for Manuel indicates that there was nothing that prevented the other members from writing songs and putting them on the albums. Manuel’s deterioration is well documented, including many people’s efforts to help him (Robbie said something like “I begged, I pleaded, I offered to co-write with him”. Levon himself said in his book that on the Cahoots album he “shot his wad” with Life is a Carnival (and he was credited for that song).
2. I think I saw an article where Larry Campbell said that the song “Growing Trade” on the Electric Dirt album was co-credited to Levon because without Levon, the song wouldn’t have been written. He didn’t say that Levon wrote any of the song, but the discussions they had together about the contents of the song, etc, contributed to the writing of the song. Strictly speaking, this doesn’t necessitate a songwriting credit. However, it was nice and very fair of Larry to give him one.
For me, this probably captures some of what happened with The Band. For example, Levon and Robbie probably discussed the civil war, Levon took Robbie to the library to research some things, and then Robbie wrote the Night they Drove old Dixie Down. In the music industry, that doesn’t require a songwriting credit, and Levon didn’t get one, although he probably felt that this should have been enough to get a credit. Same thing with Up on Cripple Creek. Would it be the same without the drum beat, clavinet, Levon’s voice, Richard at the end, the funky base line? No, it would be a different song, and probably not a classic. However, those things do not necessitate songwriting credits, unfortunately. That may not be fair, but that’s a different issue.
3. The sheer lack of songwriting output after 1976 from the Band seems to confirm much of what Robbie has said (when he has been pushed to say so, because for many years, he would just take the high road on this issue). There is very little of note written by Garth, Richard, Rick or Levon since 1976. The Band’s later albums were mostly covers, as were Levon’s (excellent) recent solo albums Robbie has written sporadically for a few albums and some of the songs on those albums are decent. What is horrible, especially with his first solo album, is the overall production and sound – for me the stuff is unlistenable, whereas I can put on the brown album every day and still love it. Maybe a lot of the Band’s stuff would have been unlistenable or not even written or recorded in the way it was, without the other band members, but in the music industry, that doesn’t garner songwriting credits. Again, that might not be fair, but that’s a different issue.
4. I went to two of Levon’s Rambles, and I can tell you that it was amazing, and I have seen hundreds of concerts. They are at the top of my “best concerts ever” list, even ahead of me standing 5 feet from Stevie Ray Vaughn as he played Voodoo Chile.
5. Sadly, 3 of the Band’s members have passed. They were a unique group that produced some amazing music and each of them made an important contribution so that the sum of the parts was greater than the whole. If you took out any one of them, it would not have been the same. We weren’t there, and cant say for sure, but I wish people would let this issue go and just enjoy the music.
There is a lot of truth in your post. Garth should have received credit on many songs. I mean, how could Robbie direct Garth? Take Chest Fever = did Robbie write Garth’s organ solo? Seriously. You mentioned Cripple Creek, Garths clavinet and Levon’s drumming make the song work, and Robbie didn’t come up with either of them. Robbie was the lyracist, but the other guys made it work.
Mr. Colatrella, exposed as an alleged fraud by one of the readers here, iis, if not a fraud, a fool. To contend that Levon beleived Manuel’s suicide was in part a reaction to the songwriting issue? Come on. Of course I don’ know what Levon said regarding that, but he has oft been quoted as saying that Richard’s suicide was his way of “shaking things up” or some such nonsense. Levon often seemed like a man in denial,and that statement is proof of it. Levon was on the road with Richard and Rick and Garth went the hanging went down (I believe he even helped Rick cut poor Richard down) and it just seems he couldn’t face up to his own responsibility in enabling Manuel’s drug and alcohol abuse. Danko, as we saw later, was also a sad case who ballooned up to 300 pounds and became a heroin addict. The great voices of the band members and the great musicianship of Garth still do not make them songwriters. It just doesn’t, no matter how one tries to spin it.
Songwriting is a craft, as noted, and can, to some extent, be done through sheer determination, practice and a little bit of grasp of language. But it takes a lot of effort, and people who are drunk or high all the time generally don’t sit down and decide to write a song. It’s like putting a blank piece of paper into a typewriter and trying to start a novel.
Yeah, Robbie wrote Chest Fever, right?
Sure maybe Robbie wrote the lion’s share, but it’s also true those songs wouldn’t have been as great without the participation and input of that particular group of people. I am reminded of The Pogues, whose main songwriter Shane MacGowan wrote the bulk of THEIR songs, but the rest of the band gets a 30% share of them anyway, because they all agree it’s a joint effort, and have clearly learned from these sorts of bitter lessons.
I love that REM just splits everything, there are certainly other bands that do that too, and i applaud them.
Ive been a Band man since 1968 when I first heard MFBP and have all their music including all their subsequent solo albums. My opinion is that none of the members got anywhere near the great songs as solo performers that they achieved as a group and that tells me they DID all make major contributions to the songs that the Band created. So yes, I do have an issue with RR claiming all credit for most of their songs.
You need to differentiate between writing a song and contributing to the arrangement of a song. Writing a song means coming up with the lyrics, the melody and chord changes. Adding a drum pattern or an instrumental solo is contributing to the arrangement but is not in its self writing. You get a writing credit and royalties for writing a song but not for arranging a song. If you could get a co-writing credit for an arrangement, every time someone came up with a new version of the song, they could claim a co-writing credit. In the interviews I have read, Robbie was always very generous in acknowledging the contribution the other guys made to the performance of the songs, he says they just didn’t write them. My question is this: why did Levon wait more than twenty years after the songs were published to raise this as an issue? Also, why did he only complain about Robbie not sharing writing credits and not Rick, Richard or Bob Dylan?
Wallsend, you may want to take a look at the court case involving the big 60s hit ”Whiter Shade Of Pale” by Procol Harum. In the case [ link below] Mattew Fisher [ keyboards ]successfully sued the supposed writer [ Gary Brooker] for royalties etc because he contributed the centrepiece organ solo. So now a legal precedent has been made to assist in clarifying disputes such as Levon’s argument.
If you wanted to cast a close look at all the Band’s songs Im sure you could come up with quite a few where other members beside RR , Garth Hudson in particular, had made signifciant contributions to the creation of the songs. The crazed organ -clavinet on Cripple Creek immediately comes to mind and there are many others as well.
In answer to your question why Levon didnt raise the issue of song-credits earlier, actually he did, he raised the matter with then-manager Albert Grossman after the release of their second album The Band. Your second question is one I dont quite understand.
Its such a shame that this issue has somewhat tarnished the Band’s memory and also caused bitter debate amongst many of the groups true fans. When the issue surfaced some years ago I stayed out of the bitter debate initially but finally I had to come down on Levon’s side for reasons I gave in my inital post..that none of the members since the split had gotten anywhere near the quality of songwriting they did when they were together. Enjoy the music , and all the best,Peter
http://www.uncut.co.uk/procol-harum/procol-harum-keyboardist-wins-whiter-shade-of-pale-high-court-case-news
John D: Really? What a disgusting thing to say. Shame!
Nonsense: Bravo! You took the words out of my mouth.
Why should Robbie be responsible for anyone’s finances except his own? It’s insulting to the other 4 to suggest they should be treated like children. They were grown men and capable of looking out for themselves. Because they didn’t isn’t Robbie’s fault.
A good point about the Whiter Shade of Pale case. I haven’t read the ruling (I will look for it) but my guess would be that the organ solo was deemed to be a substantive part of of the composition itself. There was a similar case in which the flute solo in the Men at Work song Land Down Under was said to have been copied from Kookaburra Song.
In the case of the Band, however, Levon, Rick, Richard and Garth never took legal action against Robbie. Garth said he had no complaint about the writing credits; Rick said contradictory things but in his final interview he also said he had no complaints. In the absence of a court ruling, the writing credits stay with Robbie. In his book, Levon says he mentioned it to Grossman after the release of the second album but that book was published in 1993. Is there any contemporary evidence (ie from the 60s or 70s) that he mentioned it? Why didn’t he take legal action in 1970? Why didn’t he leave the Band (as he did during the 1966 Dylan tour) if he was unhappy about the writing credits? In the 1970s and 80s Levon gave various interviews and never mentioned the writing issue. Isn’t it likely that he only raised it because he fell out with Robbie over something else? The same applies to his criticism of The Last Waltz. Why didn’t he make any of those criticisms in the 1970s?
I will elaborate on my second question. Levon argued that the songs were all joint compositions and Robbie shouldn’t have been credited as sole writer. However, not all the songs were credited to Robbie. This Wheels on Fire, for example, was credited to Danko/Dylan and In a Station was credited to Manuel. If all the songs were joint compositions why didn’t he also criticise Rick and Richard for not sharing their writing credits? Why was only Robbie the bad guy?
I agree with your points about their collective work being better than their individual work and I also a agree that it is a shame that this issue has caused such bitterness amongst fans. The thing I don’t like about the attacks on Robbie is that a lot of it seems to be racially motivated (see the contribution above from John D above). Also, it really irritates me that people quote Levon’s book so uncritically. I don’t know how many times I have seen people repeating Levon’s spiteful comment about Robbie’s mike being turned off during the Last Waltz (I really don’t think that is plausible!). Of course Levon had the right to express his views but people should listen to both sides of a story before forming an opinion.
I cant really answer any of the valid questions you asked but as I said, my opinion is that the song credits and loyalties should have been shared around a lot more evenly than they were. Its obvious to me that most of the finished product songs were a collaboration, for example Garth would spend days ,in his words, ”sweetening up the songs”The Procol Harum legal decision puts a new light on issues such as The Band’s song credits and Levon’s claims that they were dudded.
When I look at Levon”s book and Barney Hoskyns ‘Across The Great Divide’ and cross-reference some of the information in both books it looks to me like Levon’s claims do have some validity. Anyway, this is always going to be a divisive issue for Band fans so I guess all we can do is appreciate the music they left and know for sure that they were a one-of-a-kind miracle and nodody, before or since ,has ever come close to matching them.
This just about sums it up for me too, VERY WELL put. The irony of the “Whiter Shade Of Pale” ruling for Matthew Fishers Organ solos is that they were pretty much a rip-off of JS BACH. He got a ruling that gave him a songwriting credit and I can see that as valid because it structurally changes the song. I have to believe what John Simon said , Robbie wrote the words and melody where he was credited. One things that is never brought up too is from what I have read Robertson’s ability to write songs even at 16 years old is what got him to be considered for THE HAWKS in the first place. If you research it you can find he wrote the first songs the recorded that were originals “Hey Boba Lu” by Ronnie Hawkins and The Hawks. and how about “The Stones I Throw” by Levon and The Hawks from 1965 where Robertson gets the sole writing credit!! The guy was writing from the beginning. The sour grapes by Levon is way after the fact. Not saying Robbie should not have shared publishing royalties but the credits for the songwriting are probably 99% correct in The Band.
Peter……..With respect, have you applied the same logic to The Beatles?…….have the comparatively weaker solo albums of Lennon and McCartney led you to believe that they “ripped off” Ringo and George by not sharing the credits………and the Townsend solo is a far cry from The Who’s glorious body of work……surely Daltry, Entwistle and Moon were “ripped off” as well? Wellsend’s point is a key one………why is it that we are to believe that the Rick and Richard credits are just fine but only the Robbie ones are suspect?
The facts on songwriting credits on the post Last Waltz-post Robbie albums by The Band speak for themselves as facts. Garth, I believe, had only one songwriting credit on the 35 songs which were contained on Jericho, Jubilation and High on the Hog. On the first two albums – Jericho and Jubilation – which I own, Levon has ONE CO-WRITE and Rick NONE and Garth NONE. So the facts are that the “one for all and all for one” thing didn’t happen in the post RR Band era either.
Finally let’s consider the positions of people who really know the truth:
“Robbie was the one who wrote the lyrics and wrote the music. Wrote the lyrics on legal paper, or whatever he wrote it one, and figured out the chords to the song and dictated the melody and the chords to the other players” – John Simon, The Producer on the first two Band albums and considered its “6th member”
“Writing with Levon, my experience was, he wasn’t gonna do any labour where writing a song is concerned. The songs we’ve co-written, when it came down to constructing the song, that was my job.” – Larry Campbell – Levon’s closest musical associate post Band
“I don’t want to speak ill of the dead, but in the three critical years of The Band’s ascendance, I was there every day. Robbie worked writing at the piano or guitar every day. In the first couple of years Richard and Rick did some writing as well. By the third album, only Robbie was taking the time and effort to write. The boys showed up at the recording studio and learned the tunes.”- Jon Taplin – Manager of The Band 68-71
Kevin, I have been thinking about this a bit more and I think the really crucial evidence is not what was on the three post Robbie albums but the period from 1983 to 1986 while Richard was still alive. In that period the four of them toured extensively but didn’t come up with even one new song. Also, if they had wanted to take legal action against Robbie it would have been the perfect opportunity. Another thing, Levon said that after the second album he became aware that Robbie was unjustifiably taking writing credits but, if that was the case, why was he so upset when Robbie decided to leave? If Robbie was such a snake you would have thought he would have been happy to see the back of him.
Kevin, this debate could round in circles forever but I will say that it is obvious to me that most of The Band albums, particularly MFBP & The Band were collaborations and that most ,if not all of the members made significant contributions to the finished songs.
Another very telling point is that Rick Danko’s self titled album sounds a whole lot closer to what The Band made than anything RR ever did solo.And of course the other members dropped off from assisting in the writing of the songs after the 2nd album and that would logically be because they were not given full credit for their contributions thus far.
It says a lot about the great love for their music many still hold when after 35 years since they split we can still be debating about who did what but even though this controvesy has left a shadow over the group they remain in my eyes the best of the best .I try to avoid thinking about all the bad feelings that existed when I put one of their albums on and maybe we’ll all have to agree to disagree about the song credits and focus on what a wonderful , moving body of work they left us.
How can you tell from listening to a finished piece of music that it was collaboratively written? The finished product disguises the process that led to its creation. If you listen to the finished version of Twilight it sounds ‘collaborative’ but we know from Robbie’s solo piano version that he wrote the whole thing and the others just added their parts. They played very skilfully but playing a song that has already been written is different to actually writing the song.
I can say that the songs sound like collaborations because that is my opinion . Nothing Ive read on here has changed my view one bit.
I will however give RR a tremendous thank you for coming up with the Last Waltz and having it filmed because more than anything else it has immortalised The Band. It made them a lot more famous and well known than they would have been and has made their music available and accessible to younger people and will continue to do so. Without the Last Waltz The Band would now be almost totally forgotten and for this RR deserves absolute, total and full credit.
Amen to that. That movie is exquisite and one of the best things Martin Scorsese has done. That doesn’t mean it’s an uncontested representation of the actual event. People who want the actual event–sorry, there was only one chance to witness that. Anyone who documents an event leaves things (and people) out, imposes a point of view on that event, etc., especially when that someone is a major director.
Gotta say, I didn’t see or hear anything in that movie that marginalized or minimized the contributions of Rick, Garth, Richard, and Levon until the “feud” started almost 20 years after the damn thing was released. Yeah, Robbie dominated the interviews, but Levon was every bit or more important and charismatic, even if he hated it as much as he said. Richard, Rick, and Garth all had their moments, and they were memorable. But when folks go looking for something they usually find it, and those who want to watch the movie to confirm their allegiance to Levon and their hatred of Robbie will see what they want to see/hear what they want to hear.
Remember = On MFBP, Richard wrote just as many songs as Robbie, and co-wrote three on The Band, and two on Stage Fright. Sadly, his inner demons caused him to stop writing. Robbie brought out the best in The Band, and the others brought out the best in Robbie.If Robbie bought out Richard’s, Rick’s, and Garth’s interests for $20,000 each then he ripped them off. Robbie knew that re-issues and compilations of Band albums were in the works and would spur future sales (bought by fans like me). $20,000 was pocket change and he took advantage of his friends.
How do we know he bought them out for $20,000 each? When did that happen? Also, does anybody know anything about who owned the name The Band? I am wondering about what the legal issues were in the 1983 revival.
From what I recall reading somewhere, it may have been in Barney Hoskyns ‘Across The Great Divide’ when they tossiing around the idea of reforming they actually asked RR would it be ok if they still used The Band as their name. Apparently RR gave his blessings and wished them luck.
Well, damn me, I changed my mind–I will comment after all. For those who are keeping score, let’s say Robbie did do Levon Helm wrong. But in the end, Levon had the more successful solo career not just as a musician but also as an actor, which must have really surprised Robbie, who clearly had frustrated ambitions in that category. Levon’s last couple of records won Grammies. There’s no question–Levon got his side of the story out there, widely and deeply, and there are now just as many or more people who reject The Last Waltz and see Levon as the Band’s true leader, if there actually was a leader. So he had The Last Laugh. And he managed to record commentary tracks for the Last Waltz DVD. How did he get persuaded to do that?
If we’re talking as a person and as a performer, Levon Helm was and is more popular than Robbie by a country mile, which isn’t the same as financial wealth, but so what?
What bothers me most of all is the implication that somehow Robbie (and Grossman and Scorsese) were all out to get the others, to victimize them, to bleed them dry — come on folks, it can’t be that black and white, that cartoonish, that simple, can it? Richard, Rick, Levon, and Garth, they were all just innocent lambs ripe for slaughtering? I’m not buying it, but some folks out there have, lock stock and barrel.
I think the Band would’ve broken up when and how it did regardless of the “feud.” I think the Beatles would’ve split when and how they did even if Yoko Ono hadn’t met Lennon. And while we’re on the “what ifs,” I think the Vietnam War would’ve been a catastrophe and a US loss even if JFK hadn’t been killed. Maybe that gives some perspective…
For me, though, the score is this–I love The Band and their music, as a group and solo. I’m disappointed by all the acrimony and as much as I’d like to say it hasn’t affected my enjoyment, the enjoyment I had before the pissing contests of the 1990s and thereafter, I can’t say that. But then I go and play a Band album, or Levon’s Dirt or Electric Farmer, or Robbie’s Storyville or Redboy, or Garth’s Sea to the North, or Richard’s Live album, or Rick’s Times Like These, and all the negative crap’s just washed away. Sometimes naivete is a good thing. I suppose I was naive about the Band before the 1990s brawls in the press and on the pages, but they were and are special, they were and are unique.
People talk about a ‘feud’ but there was no feud. Robbie never said anything bad about Levon or the others. He said numerous times how much he loved them all. I think it is funny that Levon supporters want to trash the Last Waltz because of what Levon said but actually Levon looks incredibly good in the Last Waltz and features heavily in Cripple Creek, Dixie and Ophelia which is a large chunk of the film. If Robbie and Martin made the Last Waltz in order to minimise Levon’s role in the Band they didn’t do a very good job! My guess (!) is that Levon got sick of people saying how great the Last Waltz was (since it was Robbie’s project) and what a great song writer Robbie was, so that when Robbie declined to participate in the reunion he just said ‘we all wrote the songs and the Last Waltz was crap’. If you look at online reviews and ratings of the Last Waltz it scores incredibly highly. The only people who don’t like it are people who have read Levon’s toxic book.
Actually, Levon’s book ‘This Wheels On Fire’ is not toxic and is one of the best and funniest music bio’s Ive ever read, and I have many.Levon expressed his belief that RR and Albert Grossman ripped them off. If RR knew it was wrong then he could have sued him and that he did not says it all really.
‘This Wheels On Fire’ is a wonderful book and I would urge anyone interested in The Band’s story to get hold of a copy because there are some brilliantly funny and touching stories along with some great moments in music history.
When This Wheel’s on Fire came out Robbie said he wasn’t concerned about what Levon wrote because he (ie Robbie) was there when the songs were written and he knew what really happened. He also said he had moved on with his life since those days and he wished Levon well.
I think The Band’s legacy would be much greater had they not chosen Grossman as their manager. For instance, The Band were the headliners at Woodstock, but nobody knows that since he kept them out of the movie – a huge mistake. I don’t think he was ethical and I’m sure too much money came down in his corner. The sad part is, that they all made enough money to set themselves up comfortably if they had had proper financial guidance and advice and if that was the case we would never have gotten into who wrote what.
Not including the original version of The Weight in the Easy Rider sound track was also a big mistake in terms of promoting their popularity. Nobody listens to it now but back in the day it was very popular. I would have more sympathy for Levon and the other guys if they had been a bit more thrifty and careful with the money they did receive. Even if they had got part of the writing royalties wouldn’t they have just blown it all partying.
Good point, CCR & Johnny Winter also played at Woodstock and were not in the movie. They missed the 3 best acts!.
Robbie is credited with songwriting credits for the Genetic Method. No hard analysis is needed to understand that is utter b.s.
Good Point! Not even Wallsend who is all over this board defending Robertson can attempt to argue that! RIP Levon, Denko, Manuel!
I guess the thinking behind this was that it started out as the introduction to Chest Fever which Robbie wrote. It is based on a piece by Bach so should he also get a writer’s credit?
I know John Simon fairly well, and once asked him point blank, did Levon have a point? Did he and the others in the Band help write those songs and were they denied? And looking me straight in the eye he said, “Robbie wrote all those songs.”” As far as I’m concerned, case closed.
Thank you Kinny!
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“I don’t believe he came up with all the other players parts.” Sigh. Being the songwriter who gets paid to have been the songwriter has to do with coming up with a demo (either recorded, or presented to the musicians) that has lyrics, melody, and chords. It does not have to do with coming “up with all the other players parts.” For instance, McCartney sometimes gave precise instructions to Ringo what to play on the drums, and sometimes made no suggestions at all to him there, and when he did and when he didn’t do that has NOTHING to do with whether a song’s “Lennon-McCartney.”
Songwriting is often a collaboratal process with bands. Maybe there is one guy that is more inclined for songwriting than another but everyone brings something to the table. Once a group has a recording contract all songs should be in each and every one of the group’s names. To not do so causes problems just like the one with The Band. Egos are big and no one wants to give up anything. In spite of this it should be set out at the beginning the rules of songwriting.